{"id":4124,"date":"2021-08-16T21:02:37","date_gmt":"2021-08-16T09:02:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/winefolio.co.nz\/?p=4124"},"modified":"2021-08-16T21:16:37","modified_gmt":"2021-08-16T09:16:37","slug":"winemaker-series-simon-nunns","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/winefolio.co.nz\/?p=4124","title":{"rendered":"Winemaker series: Simon Nunns"},"content":{"rendered":"\t\t
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I\u2019m over to catch up with Simon Nunns for a chat to see what he\u2019s up to. Last time I bumped into him he described himself as \u2018making chutney\u2019, but I haven\u2019t been to his home, so I\u2019m not sure if I should expect a place overflowing with exotic spices and vegetables.. In fact it\u2019s a striking mid-century house with suitable \u2018cool\u2019 fittings and an impressive looking hi-fi set up.<\/p>

I see you like your music \u2013 that\u2019s quite an impressive set up. I\u2019m finding quite good buying in the CDs at the moment. I think the days of picking up good vinyl for cheap have gone, but I\u2019m still finding I can get CDs for around a dollar each. I\u2019ve still got the Sony CD player I bought in a HiFi shop in Bristol about 30 years ago. I remember deliberately talking to the people there and saying I wanted a good one that had the fewest \u2018features\u2019 possible. I think this one has Play, Pause, Stop, Shuffle and a thing called \u2018Time\u2019 where it plays the CD but counts down the time on each track \u2013 not hugely useful, or used. I was at a fleamarket a couple of days ago and this one guy had the most boxes of CDs I\u2019ve ever seen. He must have had 5000 CDs, and that\u2019s all he had. No \u2013 he had two ladders as well. I mean looking through one banana box of CDs is fine, but he had about fifty boxes. It was daunting, and plenty of weird stuff, not just pop music.<\/p>

Simon Nunns<\/strong>: I agree, it\u2019s daunting, to have that much choice. I\u2019ve taken to, when I\u2019m buying vinyl now, making up a list of what I\u2019m interested for the day. And that might be ten albums, and not deviate too much from that. So it gives me a focus, because I\u2019m prone to getting overwhelmed and leaving (laughs)<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I find that on Record Store Day. You might read that there\u2019s a pink vinyl edition of Generation X\u2019s first album coming out, and you go to the store, and you can\u2019t find it. And your head gets swivelled by \u2018what\u2019s this \u2013 what\u2019s that\u2019. Last time I went I took one of the kids along and told them to go find \u2018this, specifically\u2019 so I can get distracted by the everything else of it all. And I don\u2019t really have any set thing. I do tend to have a sharp intake of breath if I come across any electronic stuff there \u2013 like early hip hop, or techno\u2026 but often it isn\u2019t. It\u2019s often just \u2018rock\u2019, which isn\u2019t me.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Me neither.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: But, having said that, I was of an era when guitar-based music was still really important. I was born in \u201966 and so it was the second wave of punk rather than the early pioneers, and what became known as \u2018indie rock\u2019 that captured my teenage interests. Stiff Little Fingers, Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Smiths and so on.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: I\u2019m mostly the same. My taste is fairly eclectic but virtually nothing that would be considered mainstream sitting in the pile anywhere.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: For me it\u2019s like so many things \u2013 the stuff at the edge is where the interesting things are. With exceptions. I\u2019m a reasonably big fan of the Human League, who were the biggest pop band around for a while. But as a young fella I only ever bought what was current. I refused to go back and buy The Doors, or Pink Floyd \u2013 although I did break that rule once I was older, mid-twenties. We had a bunch of hippies at our school who would listen to Bad Company and The Grateful Dead and I used to think \u2019you tossers, there\u2019s all this great music coming out\u2019.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: I have to say I don\u2019t own a single album of The Doors and I probably never will, and I despise Pink Floyd, so I suspect I\u2019ll never own that either.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: \u201cDespise\u201d? Wow, is that a New Zealand perspective, or just a personal thing?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Just a personal thing. I believe they are quite popular here, just never with me.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: Well well. Anyway \u2013 I came here to talk to you as a winemaker!! What are you doing at the moment?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: I\u2019m quite busy \u2013 winemaking wise I\u2019ve two clients I\u2019m consulting for. A crowd in Gisborne called Lake Road Wines, and I look after their smaller volumes, higher-end. They\u2019re a company that\u2019s been set up to do bulk wine for cleanskin style stuff, but they, of late, wanted to do smaller runs of higher quality material, so I look after those for them. This year I\u2019ve got a couple of Chardonnays and a couple of Pinot Gris that I\u2019m looking after. That company has also bought Stanley Estate in the Awatere Valley. So I\u2019ve had a look at all the Stanley Estate stuff for them as well. I think the deal was that the existing stock would be taken on consignment to see what they could sell.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I\u2019ve got reasonably high regard for Stanley Estate \u2013 their Chardonnay is something I\u2019ve specifically bought in the past.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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SN<\/strong>: Yes, I agree. And as far as I know it\u2019s continuing as normal, so.. I suspect those guys were hunting for Marlborough Sauvignon and ended up with a bit of other stuff as a result of that purchase. So that\u2019s one consultancy and the other is a North Canterbury property called Dancing Water Wines which is owned by a group of friends based up here. They wanted to invest in a project that had a meaningful, personal connection, and, they all loved beautiful wine.<\/p>

\u00a0Between the two of them, at this time of year, I\u2019m pretty busy. They have a ten hectare property, four of which is planted, and if you are facing the property from the main road, just behind them on the right is Greystone, and behind them to the left is Mountford.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I\u2019m going to both those places next week when I\u2019m in Waipara.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: To get to Mountford you have to drive alongside it. That\u2019s taken up much of my time because it\u2019s a rebuilding from scratch scenario, so there\u2019s lots of input required there. And that\u2019s a very interesting client to have. One of the partners is Kim Schofield. She is my primary contact. Kim is hugely motivated and they are making great progress.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: do you do the viticulture side of it as well?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: I do but that\u2019s not my speciality. For both of my clients I do some viticulture though. Dancing Water have recently employed David Jordan as well, who you may have come across. He runs a company called \u2018Vine to Wine to Market\u2019 and he\u2019s a viticulture specialist. He\u2019s put in place some protocols for them, with a particular focus on the restoration of the vineyard.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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I can do day to day stuff, but when it gets a bit more serious like that I\u2019m confident that there are plenty of people with greater ability than I. North Canterbury is a lovely spot, and although you could say \u2018it\u2019s got great potential\u2019.. a lot of that potential is already being realised. There\u2019s been some great wines coming out of there for a long time now. Dancing Water\u2019s Pinot is their speciality and 2019 and 2020 wines are extraordinary. 2021, which has just gone into barrel, is also very, very flash.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I\u2019m very keen to go and have a look. That thing they\u2019re doing at Greystone with the Vineyard ferment sounds interesting, and I\u2019m going to Pyramid Valley and Bell Hill up the road as well.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Those two clients will quieten down once vintage is over. And I\u2019m making chutney still (laughs). I\u2019ve been collecting guavas this morning. It\u2019s a very bountiful guava year this year. You can use them for jelly, or paste or chutney. They\u2019re challenging. It\u2019s not a way to make your life easy. It\u2019s very hard to get the stones out of them. I\u2019ve also just got some persimmons and a bowl of limes. And Corey, the winemaker at Coopers Creek, got hold of a bunch of medlars. So I\u2019ve got a couple of litres of medlar liquid (laughs) which I\u2019ll find a way to use.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I think people know I\u2019m interested in flavours \u2013 food, tastes, and so on. People ask me fairly often about medlars!! And all I ever say is that it\u2019s been a while since I dealt with any! You used to have to leave them to go soft basically \u2013 \u2018blet\u2019 them I think it was called.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: That is the appropriate term, yes! \u00a0And you still have to do it. Corey was delighted when he found you had to blet them. It pretty much suits his personality style to leave them somewhere until they go rotten.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I\u2019m supposed to be going over there to see him at some point. I\u2019d double booked myself, as I sometimes have an annoying habit of doing. So, how come you\u2019re not still at Coopers Creek now?<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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SN<\/strong>: Well I left there in October 2019. That was almost 23 years there, which is a fair stint I think. Certainly I didn\u2019t feel that I had the ability to achieve anything more than what I had. It was a good time to leave really. I\u2019d made the decision middle of the year \u2013 June, I think, and gave them four months notice, which was plenty of time to find someone else. I was just tired, basically. A job like that you have to be on top of pretty much every situation and it\u2019s ultimately very, very tiring.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: With some great plans for anything else?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Not at all. I wanted to have a lie down, there was that. I\u2019ve done something like 33 vintages, and I was certainly tired enough\u2026 without wanting to turn my back on what I\u2019d done. Because that\u2019s all I can do, really. The intention was to have a break. Then these two clients came to me \u2013 I didn\u2019t actively seek other work. It\u2019s interesting because Katrina, my partner, and I are in a lucky situation where this place is freehold, so we don\u2019t have a mortgage. That allows you the ability to draw your horizons lower and closer, and live what can be a very fulfilling life on\u00a0a whole lot less money.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: I\u2019m lucky, I am still doing what I wanted to do as a career when I was seventeen. Back then I was really into published material \u2013 posters, magazines, things like record covers. Obviously the internet had changed the printed side of things, but online is still a very interesting connective way of communicating, and photos and words are still quite powerful. So, saying I wanted to get into publishing when I was 17.. it\u2019s still really accessible to be in that environment now. So, I don\u2019t know how many years you can say I\u2019ve been doing that \u2013 over thirty \u2013 but I\u2019m at a stage now where financially I can sleep happily at night. But I can now step off the hamster wheel and just indulge other interests. I didn\u2019t focus on wine until about two years ago, when someone asked me \u2018where I would like to be in ten years time\u2019 type of question. So, I still find there\u2019s lots of doors to open and have poke around in.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Wait until you\u2019re thirty or forty years into it and there\u2019s still plenty of doors to be opened!<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: is there something else that you would like to find time to do? Is there an itch to scratch?<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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SN<\/strong>: Not really, no. It might seem rather stupid but I\u2019m quite comfortable doing what I\u2019m doing at the moment. I\u2019ve got an active role in the wine industry and that makes me happy, because it is a wonderful industry with any number of extraordinary human beings involved. It\u2019s wonderful to be part of because you\u2019re dealing with people who have so much knowledge and experience, and in most cases a willingness to share that. It\u2019s funny because there\u2019s so little proprietary knowledge \u2013 that is to say, that is specific to one person or organisation. Most of what goes on is published in scientific literature. There are few patented aspects of vinification that are genuinely known only to the patent holders, but beyond that pretty much everybody is able to know everything, which is wonderful.<\/p>

We\u2019ve changed our lifestyle so that our outgoings are much lower, and the income I have, in conjunction with Katrina\u2019s, is enough to survive. She\u2019s a winemaker by trade as well but she\u2019s recently moved from Constellation Wines to the New Zealand Food Innovation Network. So the extra time I have has enabled me to get involved with chutney making, which seems like an odd thing to do perhaps, but in many ways it\u2019s not.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: it\u2019s an odd thing to say isn\u2019t it? I mean you must see the reaction that goes across people\u2019s faces every time you tell them, but\u2026 it sounds quirky! But people do all manner of quirky things, and I actually think it\u2019s a pretty cool thing to do. I\u2019ve got quite a library of books, and I\u2019d say alongside things like foraging, wild food and self sufficiency books I probably do have about five books on Preserving Food. I have about ten different BBQing devices, and I used to have about the same number of gadgets for making coffee, for example. My maternal Grandmother was a Cook in a house not unlike Downton Abbey if you\u2019ve ever seen that TV series. So properly old school kitchen prep. And I am quite obsessive about waste, and things like composting.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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SN<\/strong>: I\u2019m with you. I put out the weekly rubbish last night which was a bag about that big (shows me an imaginary bag that\u2019s very small). And the whole chutney making thing is an extension of that in that in many ways. In the community there are so many people who have fruit trees and who aren\u2019t willing or able to consume the produce. It doesn\u2019t really take that long to start a series of contacts with local people who know that you are interested in having the guavas that are far more than they can deal with themselves, as was the case today. For example \u2013 olives. Last year was a big olive year in Auckland. I walk most days down through Herne Bay and the number of olive trees down there is extraordinary. You don\u2019t have to work too hard to find people who really are delighted if you\u2019re helping to remove the volume of fruit they\u2019ve got in their backyard. And are similarly delighted when you take them a jar or two of chutney to say thank you.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Are you someone who collects and cultivates weird and wonderful plants.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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SN<\/strong>: Well, I\u2019ll show you, in the garden at the moment there\u2019s a Carolina Reaper, Scorpion, and a weird one with an Indian name I can\u2019t remember.<\/p>

(we go and look over Simon\u2019s patch of garden)<\/em><\/p>

WF<\/strong>: is that a Finger Lime?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Yes, we thought we were going to get a fruit off it this year, but it fell off. So Finger Lime, Kaffir Lime, multiple chillis. That tallest plant there \u2013 that\u2019s a Yakon \u2013 are you familiar with those? You dig them up and it looks like a kumara, but tastes like a cucumber crossed with a nashi pear. Sorrel \u2013 actually I\u2019ve made some sorrel pesto and I\u2019ll give you some.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I have enough space at mine to be able to grow pretty much what I want \u2013 if I can. I don\u2019t really see the point in growing stuff that I can easily get somewhere \u2013 like onions and potatoes, but I do grow spring onions for example and get through a lot of those. When we moved in I thought about what I wanted to plant, and that\u2019s when the damson tree went in. Along with the right sort of citrus \u2013 limes, blood orange, figs, kaffir lime and so on.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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SN<\/strong>: There\u2019s a fig tree next door, and a mate round the corner\u2019s got figs, and they both had a bountiful year. Interestingly, and I don\u2019t really know why, but the bird pressure on the figs this year was the lowest in years. Normally you\u2019d lose all of them to birds if you don\u2019t net them.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: We get a heap of birds through the damsons but they\u2019re so prolific it really doesn\u2019t matter. We moved our fig tree about three years ago, so it\u2019s still sulking a little.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: In the summer months there\u2019s enough out there to keep us fully fed. There\u2019s lettuce, rocket and tomatoes grow very well out there, and strawberries were really good this year.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: How did you get into wine \u2013 what got you started?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: The pathway for me was frightfully simple actually. My university first time around was at Massey University, which was, back then, a very \u2018beer orientated\u2019 experience and wine really didn\u2019t get much of a look in. But my girlfriend of the time and I decided to go away for a long weekend together which we\u2019d never done before. We had to get to Rotorua for a gathering with my family and\u00a0we decided to go through Hawke\u2019s bay and Gisborne and then on to Rotorua. I didn\u2019t want to visit wineries, but she did. So I just gave up and went along. And even though I thought it would be a tremendously boring experience, it wasn\u2019t. Went to Esk valley and Vidals, Eskdale, and up in Gisborne we went to Matawhero and possibly one other. So I went from knowing nothing about wine to suddenly being very interested.<\/p>

I\u2019d left university and I was working at a data processing company, and two of the people there were wine-orientated so they lent me books. The trip to these wineries was around April of 1987, and by about August I\u2019d become fascinated by the diversity and history to the point that I wanted to become a winemaker. That was a relatively foolish thought in that I really didn\u2019t know what a winemaker did, it just seemed like a fascinating thing. I was still living essentially a student lifestyle, although I had money now, so was able to buy some wine.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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I moved from Palmerston North to Wellington with the same company who very kindly made me redundant in 1990 when the recession was biting fairly deep. By that stage my girlfriend and I decided we wanted to go to live in London, so while that was happening I got a job in a wine shop to fill that time in. \u00a0It was a company called Tasman Wines and Spirits in Courtney Place in Wellington, which at that time was home to homeless and gluesniffers.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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So we had a very steady clientele of some unique individuals who would be lined up outside the door at nine o\u2019clock in the morning. We had fill-your-own fortifieds in the shop, so the clientele were diverse and unique.<\/p>

Upon arrival in London I started to work as a fill-in person for Threshers who very kindly offered me a Managers position, and I said, thank you but No. I did apply for and got a job at Majestic Wine Warehouses though, and started to learn a bit more about wine. I worked there for most of the time I was in London.\u00a0<\/p>

It was a good job although we weren\u2019t paid well, but had the opportunity to learn a lot. It helped me develop a global view, if somewhat Euro-centric, of wine.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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Then I came back to New Zealand in 1992 and we went up to Auckland because it had better job prospects, and a wine industry. I started pestering people for a job, and by a strange quirk of fate I went out to Coopers Creek and had a chat to Kim Crawford, their winemaker. Kim and I went to the same high school, Matamata College.<\/p>

This was October and he said \u2018there\u2019s nothing on but come and work vintage if you want\u2019. Then after visiting, the Vineyard manager called and asked if I wanted to some work in the vineyard, so I became the \u2018Tucker and Plucker\u2019 at Coopers Creek Vineyard in 1992. Which was meant to be a two week job and lasted all the way through to vintage time, and then I was allowed to work in the winery for harvest. By then, in June, Villa Maria were advertising for cellar hands, and that was a fairly interesting experience.\u00a0<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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They wanted two Cellar hands, one for Auckland and one for Hawke\u2019s Bay. For that job they had 300 applicants, and I got the Auckland position and Rod McDonald got the Hawke\u2019s Bay position, so Rod and I started our careers at the same time.<\/p>

I worked the \u201894 vintage and then they allowed me to go to University at Lincoln to do a post grad diploma in 1995, which was a great year for our class. We had a very engaged group of people, and a lot of people who are still making wine. Claire Mulholland, Jackie Murphy, George Jerris, to name a few. It was a change of career for many, and we worked very hard. I went back to Villa Maria as an Assistant winemaker, then moved to Coopers Creek in \u201997. That then went through to 2019!\u00a0<\/p>

And I did some vintages overseas as well. In 1996 I went to Oregon at Erath and that was a great experience. A very international group \u2013 people from France, South Africa, and lots of New Zealanders over there. I worked in Bordeaux in 2000 at a Chateau in St Emilion and I\u2019ve done two harvests, in 2002 and 2004, in Burgundy at Chanson Pere et Fils. Overall a very, very worthwhile experience. It was a great\u00a0learning time but also, as is always the case, a great life experience as well. The doing vintages overseas was very much part of my agreement with Coopers Creek, but in reality when you\u2019re doing a job as busy as a winemaker\u2019s job is there, after 2004 I just said \u2018I can\u2019t do this any more\u2019. I was utterly exhausted after a huge vintage in New Zealand and then going overseas and working a month non-stop. I\u2019d done my dash by then (laughs).<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Some wonderful wines came out of Coopers Creek though.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Yes, I\u2019m very proud of what we achieved. For a certain time there we had made some very wise vineyard-purchasing decisions. We were able to make some wines I was very proud of. And the other exciting thing with Coopers Creek was the fact that we were allowed to engage ourselves in new varieties in New Zealand, and much of that was through a single grower in Gisborne, Dave and Delwyn Bell. They planted Arneis early, so I probably made the first Arneis in New Zealand. I made the first Gruner Veltliner in New Zealand \u2013 that was through Paul Tietjen across the road. I wasn\u2019t the first with Viognier but I was early with that. The first Albarino, the first Marsanne, the first Fiano. Arguably, although I\u2019m not sure as Jenny Dobson may have beaten me there, the first LaGrein. The first Vermentino\u2026 so that was exciting times. Grape varieties that no one had any institutional knowledge of.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: That sounds like quite pioneering times? Did you have to reference examples from elsewhere to see what types of wines it would lend itself to?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Albarino is fairly straightforward. Something like Marsanne is a much harder prospect, simply because in all the appellations it\u2019s allowed, if it\u2019s in a blend, and it\u2019s not always, then they\u2019re not necessarily going to tell you. A good deal of knowledge is required to ensure that you\u2019re actually buying a wine that is just Marsanne as opposed to one which is a Roussanne-Marsanne blend. Flora and Vermentino are pretty easy. LaGrein not so easy in New Zealand but not impossible.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Arethere other varieties that you wish you\u2019d been a position to have a go at, in New Zealand? Like Pinot Noir for example?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: While it might not be immediately obvious, we made quite a bit of Pinot at Coopers Creek.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: OK, yes, let me re-phrase that. To have worked somewhere that you could be \u2018known\u2019 for making Pinot?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Your question is quite interesting. You have to frame it in terms of my life view really. Katrina and I live here because we love living here. And Auckland is not the greatest place to grow grapes in the world. Certainly not the worst, but it\u2019s not the best. And, we\u2019re here because we love urban living. We lived up on Karangahape Road for five years in an apartment in the George Court Building, which we will most likely retire to at some point. We enjoy the multi-cultural nature of Auckland. We enjoy the level of diversity \u2013 in particular culinary. We both like food, a lot. I\u2019m delighted to be able to easily shop in an Indian supermarket, a Chinese supermarket, a Filipino supermarket and a Middle-eastern supermarket which are all situated within a few minutes drive of one another.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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So, in order to be become a specialist in something like Pinot would have required us to be willing to remove ourselves from Auckland, which we\u2019ve never been willing to do. I would never say never, in so much as I don\u2019t really know what the future holds, but I know I don\u2019t really want to leave here. I can walk to Karangahape Road in three minutes and Ponsonby Road in just over five minutes. So there are real benefits to being here. And I understand that\u2019s not the lifestyle that everyone desires.<\/p>

If you are going to do anything in Auckland, then Chardonnay\u2019s a very good bet. The wine industry in Auckland exists for historical reasons. Once the Dalmatians had stopped digging gum, they reverted to their ancestral strengths \u2013 fruit growing, market gardening and grape growing. And you may as well do that nearest the biggest population centre. In many ways the wine industry is slowly ebbing away from Auckland.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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The opportunity for me to be a winemaker of specialist varieties didn\u2019t really exist in Auckland. I want to be here, and the other reason I wanted to be at Coopers Creek was that it allowed me to do so many things. At one point we probably had 17 different grape varieties coming into the winery. There\u2019s very few people who get to see that array of material and from such diverse sources. In essence, I enjoy the chance to live here and be close to the things I want to be engaged in.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Coopers Creek undoubtedly made some excellent wines. What would you say are the stand outs?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: There\u2019s a number of them really. There\u2019s not one. Probably the most exciting from a commercial standpoint was the 2012 SV Albarino from Gisborne. That was the first commercial vintage we did.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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In 2011 we got 300kgs and I made one barrel \u2013 in fact I didn\u2019t get the barrel full, I had to put some viognier in it to fill it up. Thankfully it was less than the 14% so we still called it Albarino. But in 2012 we got 9 tonnes, and that wine won seven gold medals and four trophies, possibly more than that. That was pretty exciting, there was a real roll \u2013 we won another gold medal, another trophy\u2026 Otherwise the wines that really stopped me in my tracks were the 2010 Reserve Syrah that we did off our Chalk Ridge Block. That still is a stonking wine, as is the 2013 off that block, as is the 2016 off that block\u2026(laughs)<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I was at a tasting and had the 2013, and almost everybody who was at the tasting wanted to buy it \u2013 and although it was served, there wasn\u2019t any for sale. We were gutted because it was such a great wine.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: I really rate that wine, but I rate the \u201816 and the \u201818 very highly as well.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: The Limeworks Chardonnay was in that new Hawke\u2019s Bay Chardonnay box this year.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Yes, the \u201919 wasn\u2019t it? That was a really good vintage. It was a funny one. The weather was relatively benign, so it was a great growing season, but in Hawke\u2019s Bay there were two very large, unseasonal rain events. If you had the staff to do the hand work to deal with them you were fine. And if you didn\u2019t \u2013 and we didn\u2019t \u2013 you weren\u2019t fine. So that was a very tough year. For that vintage I was flying down to Hawke\u2019s Bay once or twice a week, and literally working in the vineyard. I wasn\u2019t doing all the work, but certainly mowing, doing some spraying and stuff \u2013 and on Chalk Ridge as well, which is a very steep site. It was my job to be in the vineyard when it was harvested, and I was looking at it and I thought \u2018this is going to be a pretty flash wine\u2019. Limeworks is designed to be \u2018on special\u2019 for under $20, and you get a fair bit of wine for your dollar.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I was sent the box and I thought it represented Hawke\u2019s Bay Chardonnay very well. I assume that Cameron Douglas was looking for a range, rather than just picking the dozen that were his personal preferred style. Because as well as the Limeworks, I was pleased to see a label like Monowai in there too.<\/p>

It\u2019s odd because I went to a public \u2018Hawke\u2019s Bay\u2019 tasting recently, and I was a bit taken aback at how unrepresentative of today\u2019s Hawke\u2019s Bay it was. It was as if the person who\u2019d picked the wines hadn\u2019t been to Hawke\u2019s Bay for twenty years! Two thirds of the wines served were from Te Mata, Church Road, and the Villa Maria Group. And comments like \u201cwell, there\u2019s not much new coming out of Hawke\u2019s Bay\u201d had a few of us shaking our heads in disbelief. Those brands are all excellent, but I think there\u2019s quite a renaissance in smaller producers, many without Cellar Doors, making some really good wines. If it was me I\u2019d have definitely included The Supernatural, Decibel and Helio at least \u2013 for example, maybe Zaria and Halcyon Days too if I thought I could.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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SN<\/strong>: Yes I agree with that. It\u2019s a wonderful winemaking community in Hawke\u2019s Bay.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I wanted to ask you about judging as well. That was my first go at that, in February, and I guess I\u2019ve always just looked at wines and thought well do I like that or not, and taken a very \u2018consumer\u2019 type approach to it. Hopefully a very well informed consumer, but not a winemaker\u2019s, or even a \u2018trade\u2019 approach to it. There appears to be a camaraderie to it that\u2019s more than just the kudos of \u201cbeing a judge\u201d?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: I can give you my view. The wine industry, willingly or otherwise nurtures the individual \u2013 me, the winemaker \u2013 so it\u2019s important to return that favour and nurture the industry. If you can help to improve things that\u2019s very important to do that, I believe. There\u2019s that aspect of it. Then there\u2019s the educational aspect of it \u2013 the more you taste, the more you learn.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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Also, you\u2019re catching up with your mates, which is a really important thing. I alluded to that earlier on. The production end of the wine industry is so open and collegial. People will openly and willingly answer questions if you\u2019ve got them. Or give advice if you request it. Winemakers in general from our part of the world, just by default, are reasonably worldy-wise individuals. Most people have worked multiple times in another country. Most people have at least a degree of interest in the things that wine brings with it. Food, mythology, history, art, architecture \u2013 all of those things.<\/p>

It allows you to immerse yourself in people who are not only very talented at what they do, but are usually interested in food. It\u2019s rare to encounter \u201coh I don\u2019t eat that\u201d and the same from a vinous perspective. They\u2019ll happily engage in whatever appears.\u00a0<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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So, associated with that we do have some fabulous meals. And get to try some really fabulous wines that people bring along. That\u2019s the good thing about winemakers \u2013 everyone is willingly coughing up wines which in some cases are worth hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars a bottle. A chance to taste things you wouldn\u2019t normally, and learn about them.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I think it\u2019s a love of flavour \u2013 in all it\u2019s meanings. Not just in wine, but in life.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: It\u2019s a thirst for flavour and for knowledge as well. Wine people in general like to learn.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: And do you think the Show system works well?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Yes, broadly speaking, I think it does. That\u2019s a question in this form that we can\u2019t really answer as in many ways it requires a doctoral thesis to cover all aspects of it.\u00a0<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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There are a number of good reasons to criticise show judging and a number of good reasons to praise it as well. Wine shows by their very nature will often, willingly or otherwise, exclude people who are really on the fringes of what is acceptable. So if you\u2019re doing things which are a bit odd, or in a way that\u2019s a bit odd, or using grape varieties that are not necessarily going to achieve great success in the Wine Shows, you need to think of a different path to market. Wine Shows are not the be-all and end-all, but they are part of the matrix.<\/p>

In terms of what you\u2019re doing \u2013 wine is my life and my future. Everyone who is helping wine be viable, and that\u2019s not just a particular type of wine \u2013 I\u2019m talking about wine overall \u2013 is essentially a valuable part of what we all want to achieve. So, if you were known to be profoundly anti and contrary, I would be not so happy about that. But anyone who strives to educate and enlarge the world that we live in\u2026<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: When I started out I was mentored by a couple of people who advises me along the lines of \u2018be honest\u2019 and \u2018find the good in things\u2019. People like Raymond Chan, I felt had that sense of positivity in what he was doing, whilst making the subject matter easily understood. Also, he didn\u2019t seem to approach it as being very much about himself? Also, whilst it might be entertainment to publish a damning review of something, it\u2019s probably not much of a long term strategy. I\u2019ve done a couple of interviews in the last year, where I\u2019ve returned to the subject afterwards and made it clear that whilst I could very well just publish what they said at the time \u2013 that it\u2019s probably not in anyone\u2019s interests that I do \u2013 and that gets edited out.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Exactly what you said \u2013 panning a winery or a person\u2026 it\u2019s better to just say nothing. However, if you cast your mind back. Historically, in New Zealand at least, we\u2019ve used the 20-point system. The full system is almost never used. It\u2019s very rare to score a wine lower than thirteen in that 20-point system, but at least we understand the hierarchy. Then the US system, and Robert Parker, were the driver of that 100-point system. By default that has become increasingly utilised in our environment as well. And of course the tricky thing is trying to match one with another. A magnificent Gold medal-winning wine gets, say 19 points \u2013 so that extrapolated out to 100 points is 95. And a really good wine \u2013 a Bronze Medal wine gets 15.5 points. Extrapolate that out, and that\u2019s 77 and half or something? Using the American system, no-one\u2019s going to buy that wine. So we have been forced, unwittingly really, to squeeze what you\u2019ve got into what you\u2019re going to use. Essentially in the 100-point system you\u2019re looking at 85 and above.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: What are your thoughts on 100-point wines? The perfect wine.<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: I\u2019ve never had a wine that I consider perfect. But I\u2019m also aware that my ability to access those sort of wines\u2026(laughs) The closest wine I\u2019ve probably had to perfection is a Penfolds Bin 60A \u2013 one of the very few bottles still in existence \u2013 and that was a 1962 vintage I think. A Coonawarra Cabernet – Kalimna Estate Shiraz, and that was given to someone who worked with Max Schubert. I had that a couple of years ago and that was, for me, the most extraordinary wine I\u2019ve ever had. But I think even in that case I wouldn\u2019t think it would score 100 points. If you\u2019re being absolutely objective, there\u2019s always something that\u2019s not quite right. I\u2019m not a wine critic, so there\u2019s no social requirement for me to score a wine 100 points and in reality I probably never would.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: it\u2019s certainly a part of my career that I feel is perhaps the most difficult. I mean, how do you get the skillset to be able to say that anything is \u2018perfect\u2019?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Of course the thing to remember is that if a wine is scored 100 points, it\u2019s invariably by an individual journalist. I don\u2019t recall ever hearing of a 100 point scoring wine which has come from a judging collective. That\u2019s the way that being an individual wine critic works. And also why in many ways, judging is a wonderful alternate to that. In that no-one has the perfect palate. Everyone has strengths and everyone has weaknesses. So if you have a judging panel of three strong judges, there will be a series of strengths and weaknesses amongst those three. So there\u2019s a reasonable chance that if there\u2019s a 100-pointer in the line-up, it\u2019s not going to be missed.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: I wrote something about \u2018cult wines\u2019 \u2013 any thoughts on that? What makes a wine, a \u2018Cult\u2019 wine?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Cult wines in what sense?<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: There seemed to be a consensus that the main factor would be a difficulty in getting hold of it, and that could be price-related but not entirely\u2026 maybe it\u2019s scored 100 points?<\/p>

SN<\/strong>: Again, I think a doctorate thesis is required, but I\u2019ll answer in my own way. You can view it in many ways I think. You can view it from the Robert Parker view, and look at Barossa Valley Shiraz \u2013 so, Barossa Valley floor, old vines, very low crops, very low yielding, but with everything thrown at it. Wines that are black, with masses of tannin, masses of alcohol. Very ripe \u2013 which is a characteristic that Robert Parker and his contemporaries like. But in many ways should not necessarily be viewed as what the Barossa Valley can do. The volume has been turned up to the point where the ability to easily detect the grape variety has gone. The ability to easily detect where it\u2019s from is gone. The ability to detect that it\u2019s got a lot of oak is present. Influential critics have enjoyed that and scored it highly \u2013 so that\u2019s one way to \u2018Cult\u2019 status, and that can become even more Cult-like if a wine is hard to come by, or a wine is extraordinarily expensive.<\/p>

The other way of looking at Cult wines is that wines that appeal to a particular sub-set of humanity. Now, more and more, so we are seeing mostly young folks are taking a slightly different path to market. They\u2019re making wines that appeal to them, but also making wines that appeal to a group of the wine-drinking population, some of which might be quite small. But if those people are appropriately engaged, the wine can become a Cult wine. And it may not be a wine that Mr Robert Parker and his contemporaries look fondly upon. But it is enormously relevant to the people who want to consume it.<\/p>

Ultimately there\u2019s space for everybody in the room, but not everybody likes the same thing, and you only have to look at through my record collection to understand that. And I\u2019d be dismayed if everyone was required to like the same thing. The important thing about happiness during our time on Earth is to engage yourself in the things that make you happy, not the things that make other people happy.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

I\u2019m over to catch up with Simon Nunns for a chat to see what he\u2019s up to. 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