{"id":3005,"date":"2021-02-26T05:35:03","date_gmt":"2021-02-26T05:35:03","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/winefolio.co.nz\/?p=3005"},"modified":"2021-02-26T05:53:00","modified_gmt":"2021-02-26T05:53:00","slug":"winemaker-series-tony-bish","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/winefolio.co.nz\/?p=3005","title":{"rendered":"Winemaker series: Tony Bish"},"content":{"rendered":"\t\t
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I arrange to meet Tony at the Urban Winery early one morning, and even by my standards the previous night had been entertaining, so we decide it\u2019s a little early to do a tasting. I\u2019ve just seen Tony at Winetopia the month before and tried the new Zen, and a couple of others, so I feel I\u2019m up to date anyway.<\/p>

Tony Bish<\/strong>: This is our barrel hall \u2013 sorry about the acoustics \u2013 it wasn\u2019t designed for that! This is where we do all the Chardonnays.<\/p>

WineFolio<\/strong>: So this is a working place \u2013 I can see all the hoses and everything? I ask, because it looks beautiful.<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: Heck yes. There\u2019s 300 bottles in every barrel, so there\u2019s only one empty barrel in here and it\u2019s that end one which we use for topping. The rest are all chock-a-block. It adds up to quite a bit of fine wine at the end of the day. And every year I\u2019m going up higher, but we\u2019ve got plenty of capacity because really all I\u2019m doing even for the next few years is pushing out \u2018Fat n Sassy\u2019 because I can barrel ferment that at Sacred Hill, and I can do all my premiums in here forever and a day.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Even \u2018Fat n Sassy\u2019 is fantastic though.<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: It\u2019s a banger. I might change how that\u2019s being made. It\u2019s a third in barrel, a third in tank and a third in cuve. So I\u2019m about to buy another cuve to keep that ratio about right. So I\u2019ve got plans for that.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Just with the name it sounds like one of those \u2018Fat Bird\u2019 or \u2018Cats Pee\u2019 wines\u2026 but it\u2019s not. You open it and it\u2019s a cracker \u2013 incredible for the price.<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: That\u2019s why it\u2019s on a meteoric curve that we can\u2019t keep up with. I\u2019m about to start racking tomorrow because I\u2019m going to keep making more every year, and get my release date pushed out a bit further. Then every year it sells out faster than before so I\u2019m chasing my tail, but that\u2019s a good problem to have. We won\u2019t be releasing the 2020 until about March\/April which is fine \u2013 about a year in process, but I\u2019ll have to get moving.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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The eggs have been great, which is a big part of our innovations, and our uniqueness \u2013 other than being a Chardonnay specialist. Having introduced eggs to the New Zealand industry. I design them and I\u2019m the sales and marketing commission agent for them \u2013 placed them in wineries from Otago to Waiheke Island.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: And Rod couldn\u2019t wait?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: Yes, he got two from Sonoma after our trip to South America. I couldn\u2019t afford the exorbitant freight cost- I had to wait another year and build them. They\u2019ve been really great for us, and mine are all paid for on commission sales to other people. Kept my CapEx low which in the wine industry is a vital ingredient. The oak egg is very unique, and I used to say it was the only one in the southern hemisphere, but I have sold another one, as I do represent Taransaud as their agent in New Zealand. But certainly we have the first Chardonnay in the world made in an oak egg cuve.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: What\u2019s special about them?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: Everything. For a start the egg shape, so you\u2019re getting the convection current and the yeast autolysis enhancement \u2013 so the richness that eggs develop is quite profound. The texture and harmony in the wine is quite profound. And it\u2019s 56mm thick oak staves, so we\u2019re getting oak pick up, barrel fermentation characters. It\u2019s the pinnacle barrel really.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Will there come a time when it won\u2019t be doing the job any more?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: No, I\u2019ve got a plan for that. It\u2019s a single vineyard wine from Skeetfield, and it goes into the egg and into new barrels, so all I need to do is maintain a ratio of new oak in that wine that\u2019s consistent. I can do that by adding maybe another one barrel. And I\u2019m not even bottling all of that as \u2018Zen\u2019 yet as I have to build the market for a wine at that price. So I\u2019ve got upside capacity on \u2018Zen\u2019 which I\u2019ll have to explore as it sells out every year quite quickly now. Even if it was 50\/50 new oak and egg, that would be 4000 litres, which would be a shitload of wine at $140 a bottle. Nice problem to have. It\u2019s not an issue!<\/p>

The nice thing about \u2018Zen\u2019 is it\u2019s not an oak-driven wine. If it was you might as well do it in barrel. What would be the point? It\u2019s an egg wine, so I don\u2019t have to have high oak influence otherwise I lose that uniqueness. Anyone can put wine in a new barrel. It doesn\u2019t take cleverness, it just takes a budget. And anyone can get a budget if they ask nicely, so that\u2019s not creative winemaking to me. That\u2019s just throwing money at wine.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: But isn\u2019t that egg rather big-budget?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: I mean that\u2019s an expensive vessel, yes. But it\u2019s innovative winemaking \u2013 it\u2019s completely texturally different to any other wine. It\u2019s also become identified with this winery and that wine. Eventually we might replace it but I see many, many more years out of it. It can still do an incredibly good job as a fairly neutral vessel, just like any of the cuves. The global trend towards large vats and cuves is phenomenal. And none of them are getting turned over. They\u2019re all for the long term. It\u2019s stylistic winemaking. So that fits into that category of the rise and rise of the oak cuve. Taransaud can hardly keep up with getting enough long stave wood to keep up with global demand for vats.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: I\u2019ve been a lot of places that have mentioned it, for sure.<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: Cloudy Bay are putting in new big oak cuves every year. Australia is well ahead of us on that trend. But we\u2019re well ahead on selling wine in China \u2013 that could be a bit of a bonus for Gimblett Gravels and a few other producers. 170% tariff increase or something?<\/p>

We can survive here, in this mode, for a very long time. And that\u2019s the plan \u2013 my children are getting involved. My oldest son is going to do post-graduate winemaking \u2013 that\u2019s coming up and he\u2019s always done winemaking. In New Zealand we employ loads of Spanish, italian and they\u2019ve done 15 vintages by the time they\u2019re twenty five, and speak three languages.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: How did you end up winemaking? I think I read that back in the day you realised that surfing wasn\u2019t going to pay many bills?<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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TB<\/strong>: Pretty much. I did law but I didn\u2019t enjoy it very much. I did a couple of years and thought \u2018No, this is not me\u2019 Woke up and realised that I\u2019d only been doing it through school career-advice and it had nothing to do with what I wanted. Oscar, my oldest son, he did engineering and flew through the first year. He wanted to do biomedical which is the hardest of all the disciplines \u2013 and he got into it, on his results. Then got halfway through and thought \u2018this is boring\u2019 and bailed out. So we didn\u2019t let go at first, my wife and I. We thought \u2018Jesus, you\u2019ve got the talent\u2019 and he\u2019s a sociable and well-adjusted kid. So we said why don\u2019t you apply for this Rotary Scholarship thing \u2013 we\u2019d done the homework \u2013 and so he got a years scholarship, fully paid in Atlanta, Georgia, doing engineering. Got an A minus in Astrophysics! Who the f**k can do that? And at the end of that it was \u201cgreat, thank you, but no, I\u2019m going to London for two years and work in hospo\u201d. And we just had so say \u201cOk, it\u2019s not him\u201d And he came back from London, a new kid\u2026 now he\u2019s just finished a business and finance degree in two years.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: Life\u2019s for living isn\u2019t it?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: We\u2019ve been told, in our generation, that our kids will change careers at least three or four times. So what are we worried about? See, our generation didn\u2019t.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: So you\u2019re focussing on Chardonnay \u2013 is that because it\u2019s a good business angle and model, or because that\u2019s your passion?<\/p>

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TB<\/strong>: It\u2019s my passion. I mean, Riflemans was my baby at Sacred Hill. It\u2019s a wine that I first felt immense pride in creating. I co-founded Sacred Hill and \u201995 was the first vintage of that. It won three gold medals in three shows in the first release. And that wine lived for 12 to 15 years. It was my Epiphany wine. After being in the business since \u201981, that was the first wine that I though \u2018f**k I nailed that\u2019. And I knew that wine would live for a decade or more, right at the beginning. So that was a great feeling, and it never left me.<\/p>

And I spent a bit of professional tourism time I suppose you\u2019d call it \u2013 in Chablis. Visiting places like LaRoche \u2013 got introductions so I could talk to the winemakers and viticulturalists. And I do remember sitting on that long haul flight back from Charles de Galle and just ruminating on what I\u2019d experienced in Chablis and Burgundy, and thinking \u2018f**k those guys were passionate about Chardonnay\u201d. It blew me away. And then thinking they\u2019ve been doing that for what..800 years? Only chardonnay, and yet their passion was as much, or more, than I\u2019ve ever met in any industry.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Things like that are so good in France \u2013 the culture is so different, especially in wine.<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: This was only on reflection. These influences were lodged somewhere in my brain. I\u2019d been increasingly frustrated with some of the direction towards winemaking becoming a grocery business, and losing my passion for it. The churn. I\u2019m not a churn winemaker.\u00a0I was stressed and I was bitching to my wife about it. I don\u2019t want to live life like that \u2013 I\u2019m not a negative person. I needed to find some honesty in myself, and have the balls to do something about it.<\/p>

The trip to South America with Rod and other winemakers was pivotal in that I think it was on my mind then. I\u2019d said that \u2018one day I\u2019ll do my own label\u2019 and one of the other guys \u2013 could have been Rod or Warren \u2013 said \u201cPut up or Shut up Bish, you\u2019ve been talking about it too much\u201d. That was the point where I thought I had been talking about it a lot. And it was angsting in me. I came back and said to my good friend David Mason \u2018I\u2019m starting my own brand \u2013 you OK with that?\u2019 So we worked it out and I could stay and morph out, which was very generous of him. That was the beginning. I decided I was going to make a Chardonnay. If there was one thing I was going to do, it was that.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Did your wife share that passion and that dream? And although you seem to be climbing higher, is it hard sometimes to do that, without her?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: Yes, the personal side was very difficult. We had a very clear vision of what we wanted to achieve, and that was to create an independent, 100% Bish family owned business. With minimal debt and learn from any mistakes and lessons in business we\u2019d made in the past. Use the equity I had in the trade, in terms of being recognised by the gatekeepers. And that couldn\u2019t have happened without being 23 years at Sacred Hill. I knew I had access to the market through my reputation; as I didn\u2019t have a whole lot of cash, but I had personal equity.<\/p>

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I said to her after doing the first wine \u2013 \u2018look we should just focus on Chardonnay\u2019. It was the most obvious thing. I recognised that New Zealand and Hawke\u2019s Bay needed it too. Who was championing Chardonnay? There\u2019s people who are very good at it, but it\u2019s part of their portfolio. And I would put Mike Brajkovich at the top of that list, but he\u2019s from a historic winemaking family with a history going right back to ports and sherries. He\u2019s become a Chardonnay guru of sorts, and I have immense respect for him and his wines. But he\u2019s still not a specialist in that he does many other things.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: It hardly seems like it was this year, it\u2019s been such a weird year\u2026 but I interviewed him on the first day back to work in January. I said to him \u2018How much focus and time do you put into your other wines, because you\u2019re really known for Chardonnay? Who ever mentions your Pinot Noir?\u2019 And he said \u201cWe make really good Pinot Noir, and I put a good deal of effort into that wine\u201d. It\u2019s in the shadow of all the amazing Chardonnay.<\/p>

HB<\/strong>: I\u2019ll be a purist when it comes to that. If you\u2019re going to be a specialist then you\u2019ve gotta be a specialist. It\u2019s very different being a Brajkovich to being Tony Bish. I\u2019ve come from nowhere. No winemaking history. I have to have cut through. I\u2019m Australasia\u2019s only Chardonnay specialist \u2013 that\u2019s cut through. That\u2019s strategically smart for me. So I will not do Pinot Gris. I could do Blanc de Blanc sparkling.\u00a0<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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I could even do Ros\u00e9 as long as it\u2019s 85% Chardonnay and 15% Pinot Noir. Whether I will or not I don\u2019t know! It\u2019s not the lowest hanging fruit for me at the moment. I will stay a Chardonnay specialist. And that recognition is building now. I knew it would take a long time. 2014 was our first vintage, so 5-6 years and I\u2019m just feeling that sense of momentum now.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Do you still have a hand in other wines at Sacred Hill though for example?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: I consult, but only on Chardonnay. I was heavily involved in their wines for over twenty years, but once I\u2019d morphed into here \u2013 I don\u2019t have time. It fitted in nicely as I could help with the Chardonnay since I\u2019m at Sacred Hill every day during the harvest anyway, because I\u2019m putting my juice through there. I\u2019m going there this afternoon for a three hour session with Chardonnay, then I\u2019ve got a Maison Vauron tasting back here tonight.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: This place is fantastic. Is it really on the map \u2013 do you get a load of visitors?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: it depends on the day. Friday and Saturday nights, with live music, are our biggest turnover. We\u2019ve got a pop-up stage, our own PA system. It\u2019s washing its own face and more at the moment.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: From a tourism angle, once places like these get \u2018on the map\u2019 they become like a \u2018must-do\u2019 for visitors. And you\u2019re breaking from that traditional Cellar Door stood-up type of tasting, which can be a bit hard for some people to relax and enjoy.<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: Five craft beers on tap, a whole range of Hawke\u2019s Bay wines from small producers. If I have one criticism of New Zealand Cellar doors, it\u2019s a disconnect between the Cellar Door and the Winery.\u00a0<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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The ones I like – I like Peregrine \u2013 you walk in and there\u2019s a glass wall you can see right through, and all the barrels. Beautiful. We set this up as \u2018urban\u2019 which I think is a trend, globally. This is as much a visitor \u2018experience\u2019 as anything, here.\u00a0You can do a flight of my Chardonnays, you can do a regional flight, or you can do a premium flight. And you get choices within those. You can say I want to have Chardonnay, Syrah, Merlot and choose from a range of wines that are available. We have a smattering of international wines \u2013 we had the after-party for the Wine Auction here and had some Barolo, Champagne and the odd bottle of burgundy went out. We have a smattering of premium spirits although we\u2019re not a spirits bar as such. Barrel-aged Negronis and Old Fashioneds and a couple of good whiskys. This is an adults playground \u2013 vinyl, live music and good table service. Even on a busy Friday and Saturday we have full table service with staff that know what they\u2019re doing, and we look after everyone. Never had the police in, never had anyone fight in here \u2013 it\u2019s not that kind of place.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Wow, is that right? I used to work in clubs, and you always needed good security.<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: No, no security, no-one on the door. It just attracts the right crowd. We\u2019re really happy, it\u2019s been a good year. COVID has not damaged our business \u2013 well it did at the time, but we\u2019ve recovered and had a robust year.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Do you see changes ahead for Hawke\u2019s Bay \u2013 will it go down that specific appellations route?<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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TB<\/strong>: I think that\u2019s inevitable. There\u2019s a slow progress towards that \u2013 sub regions. I think that\u2019s a natural evolution of the industry. I\u2019ve been banging an about this for years \u2013 Hawke\u2019s Bay is New Zealand\u2019s fine wine producing region. We have a range of fine wines here. We\u2019re not a single-varietal led region and we never will be. And heaven forbid that, to be honest, from my point of view. I think it\u2019s fantastic that we do great Syrah, Merlot-Cabernet blends and Chardonnays. They\u2019re the lead ones but we also make some very good Albarinos and other interesting wines. You come here and you get quite a diverse experience of fine wine. And we\u2019re not a bulk producing, or volume producing region. Pretty much everyone in Hawke\u2019s Bay is focussed on mid to high priced wine. And so that\u2019s great. I think that\u2019s wonderful.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: I\u2019ve spoken to a couple of people from Hawke\u2019s Bay who think Syrah will be the next big thing, and a couple who think Chardonnay. What I then ask is \u201cYes, I appreciate that some of New Zealand\u2019s Chardonnay is world class, but is it distinctive enough?\u201d Like a Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc is distinctive. And perhaps a Hawke\u2019s Bay Syrah is as well \u2013 with its very aromatic profile. Is the Chardonnay different enough, on a global scale, to stand out?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: I did an around-the-world Chardonnay tasting two weeks ago. Australia, Burgundy, Americas and Hawke\u2019s Bay \u2013 all from here. I think they were distinctly different. I think there\u2019s a citrus intensity and a length on the palate. There\u2019s a purity in the fruit. That\u2019s at the core of it. I think that we will always compete with other wine regions with Chardonnay.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: Like with a \u2018Bordeaux Blend\u2019. In time it will be a \u2018Hawke\u2019s Bay Blend\u2019.<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: We deliberately forced that with Brokenstone, because that was a Bordeaux blend, on the Merlot side, and Helmsman was on the left bank style. And after a few years I got tired of it and said \u201cLook, let\u2019s just put Syrah in this because it\u2019s going to make the wine better\u201d And it did. And no-one can call it a Bordeaux blend, so now it\u2019s a Hawke\u2019s Bay blend! Did that in 2013 and Sacred Hill have stuck with that.<\/p>

With Hawke\u2019s Bay reds \u2013 we went up against first growth Bordeaux and four of the top eight wines were from Hawke\u2019s Bay. \u201cOh but you can\u2019t sell that story\u201d Well, yes, you can. Because our price is a tenth of what the French is for the same quality. Well that is a GREAT story. Amazing quality wines, that may be difficult to distinguish from the Europeans.. but the price is a killer. Look what\u2019s happening with global wine prices. What\u2019s happening with Bordeaux, Barolo, Chianti Reservas, Super Tuscans \u2013 they\u2019re getting out of mere mortals price range. And many mere mortals do want to drink fine wine. I think that\u2019s an opportunity, and I do think Hawke\u2019s Bay has a distinctiveness. I wouldn\u2019t go anywhere else in New Zealand to be doing what I\u2019m doing.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: What do you think of Central Hawke\u2019s Bay \u2013 is that an opportunity waiting to be discovered?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: That would be good in that Chablis style, that New Zealand\u2019s not that good at understanding. So you need to find another market for that.<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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WF<\/strong>: What about Hawke\u2019s Bay Sauvignon Blanc?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: it will always be a blending component to Marlborough. Marlborough\u2019s a global brand. And it\u2019s struggling on land and water. The plantings that I see going on in Hawke\u2019s Bay are to provide 15% to put into Marlborough. Now the better that 15% can be, the better for the wine. The problem with Sauvignon is it\u2019s got a glass ceiling on its value. Chardonnay is the King. I think we\u2019ve got a very exciting and sustainable category to explore. <\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t

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We\u2019ve got a lot of work to do \u2013 this is a generational business, with me as the first generation. The future for us over the next twenty years is finding new sites that suit us for our styles, and then owning those sites to provide vineyard provenance. There are still sites to explore in Hawke\u2019s Bay, for Chardonnay. That\u2019s a financial challenge and a viticulture challenge for my family.<\/p>

WF<\/strong>: I asked Chris Scott right at the end of my chat with him, who he would like to share a glass of his wine with, and he said \u2018Tom McDonald\u2019. It would be really cool to think that if your children\u2019s children were asked that question, that they would say my Grandparents \u2013 that would be great wouldn\u2019t it?<\/p>

TB<\/strong>: Absolutely, that would be really good. And I have no doubt that those wines would be better than what we\u2019re doing now!<\/p>\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t<\/section>\n\t\t\t\t<\/div>\n\t\t","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

I arrange to meet Tony at the Urban Winery early one morning, and even by my standards the previous night had been entertaining, so we decide it\u2019s a little early … <\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":3006,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_jetpack_memberships_contains_paid_content":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[7],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-3005","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-interviews-with-nz-winemakers"],"yoast_head":"\nWinemaker series: Tony Bish - WineFolio<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/winefolio.co.nz\/?p=3005\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Winemaker series: Tony Bish - 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